Building Deep Community in a Lonely World

The following is an uncorrected transcript generated by a transcription service. Before quoting in print, please check the corresponding audio for accuracy.

Collin Hansen
I had no idea what was about to hit me. When I graduated college I grew up in a community where my friend’s grandparents went to school with my grandparents and their parents went to school with my parents. Everyone seemed to know me before I was born. Then I moved to college, which was its own small town where everyone could be reached through a short walk or a bike ride. We shared bathrooms and every meal together. Naturally, I made fast and deep friends. I didn’t know that’s rare. Until I moved to the suburbs. All of a sudden, I went to church with people who drove 30 minutes each way. I worked with some people who committed two hours per day, my wife and I struggled to forge deep friendships outside work hours, we needed help. We needed a book, like find your people building deep community and a lonely world. Best Selling Author, Jenny Allen. Here’s how she describes our problem today. Quote, we spend our evenings and weekends tucked into our little residences with our little family, or roommates or alone, staring at our little screens. We make dinner for just us and never want to trouble our neighbors for anything. We fill a small little crevice called home with everything we could possibly need. We keep our doors locked, tight, and we feel all safe and sound. We’ve completely cut ourselves off from people outside our little self protective world. We may feel comfortable and safe and independent, entertained, but also, we feel completely sad and glum. How then can we find joy through deep community as Christians we commend faith in Jesus above all, you can have great friends and still go to hell. But community is still important for everyone, certainly for believers next to Christ. Jenny writes, relationships are the greatest gifts we have on Earth, and simultaneously the most difficult part of being alive. Those relationships are all around God, we enjoy a fulfilled life. And from that abundance, we bless others. When those relationships don’t revolve around God, we’re apt to idolize them. Pressure sometimes even kills those friendships as our friends inevitably fail us and we fail them. Well, Jenny offers her own life as a cautionary tale, but also shares wise advice. I promise. You can’t go wrong following the line she gives to new staff with if gathering, find an imperfect church fast and start serving in the nursery. Love it. Well, Jenny joins me on gospel bound to discuss the difference between complaining and vulnerability, the importance of time and the complication of ministry relationships, Jenny, it’s great to see you again. Thanks for joining me on gospel Baron.

Jennie Allen
Great to be here. Colin, what an intro I loved your personal story. That’s so true. The end for so many of us, right? Me too.

Collin Hansen
Well, that was exactly why I connected with the book there of you talking going back to, you know, back to the old school with the football coach, a family and everything there. And I was like, that was my world. And you just don’t know, as a child. how rare that is. And it was a gift to me. And I was one thing I thought with my kids. I just thought this meant so much to me, how could I deny that to them? was a big decision my wife and I made but anyway, you say you say Jenny that you didn’t write a feel good book about how to make friends. So I want to know, what is this book?

Jennie Allen
What is this book, think it’s a big fat kick in the pants. I think it’s a wake up call, and how off we are. In our culture, when it comes to community. We have truly three things that are massively broken, which I talk about in the book. The first one is culturally we are not prone to this. We are independent people trying to live actually going out of our way to be independently not needing other people, then we’ve got the issue of being hurt by other people. We’ve tried this and it hasn’t gone. Well. I think that’s the number one thing I hear from people. And then we know theologically, we also have an enemy that if we were created in the image of God who is communal to be communal people, then if it goes well, we have an enemy that hates it. So even when we get it, it seems like it falls apart. So I think we’ve got a lot stacked against us when it comes to this topic. But I mean, so in that regard, it felt like I am pushing people to do something uncomfortable. I am pushing people to do something very against our culture, and even against maybe some of the values that they were raised with. You know, I grew up in Texas or Arkansas in Texas. And so what I heard was you pull yourself up by your bootstraps, like people get praised for doing things on their own and not needing other people. And so my hope is, this really reframed the way we’re living.

Collin Hansen
Now, I was pretty astounded to see Jenny in this book that you say that how do I make friends? is the most frequent question you get asked online. I’m wondering if you could explain a little bit more why you think that is? And also, how long has that been the case? Is that a new development or is that been for your entire ministry?

Jennie Allen
I would say it’s certainly grown, I would say as life has probably gotten harder and darker. That conversation and that question has come up more and more. When I post about parenting when I post about marriage and when Post about friendship, I get the strongest reactions online. I think people are, you know, I’m ultimately a theologian. And I know we all are, but like I went to seminary for it. This is how I think how I write what I’m trying to give away to the world. And so you know, I get really excited when everybody has theological questions. And so when I get parenting advice, and my Instagram blows up, I’m a little bit sad, like, gosh, I would rather talk about the deep things of God. But the reality is, the deep things of God should inform our parenting, it should inform our marriages, it should inform our friendships. And so when I bring up friendship with my online community, and I get this question over and over again, and it’s such a sad question, right? It’s such, it points to something that we should know. I think we all think other people are good at this, that other people have mastered how to have good friends and healthy relationships. And it’s just us. But almost universally, I think people feel pretty bad at this. And we get this and feel like, gosh, I don’t have enough of this in my life. And so I hope that it levels the playing field for people to know that everybody’s asking this question. And specifically, of course, walking out of a season of a pandemic, where we are all, you know, we’ve literally been forced to be separated from each other. And we’ve all been more isolated than we’ve even been in our generation. So we have number one, we are the loneliest generation that has ever lived on earth, that is not debated. No one has debated that statement. Because of technology, because of wealth, ironically, because of independence. So nobody’s really arguing that we are very independent people that can order anything we need off of Amazon rather than ask your neighbor for for an egg or, or to borrow flour. And then we also now just went through a pandemic. And so we are extra independent and isolated right now. So I think it can change. But I do think, yeah, we’re up against a very disconnected way of living.

Collin Hansen
But it was interesting that in the quote that I referenced here, you talked about our little residences, the fact is with affluence that you’ve talked about the average home size has grown tremendously in the last couple generations. And then you add something like a wonderful convenience that those of us living in the South, we would never want to trade, air conditioning. And yet those two dynamics are a major reason why we’re so lonely. You’re not hanging out on the front porch, you got all the different rooms that you can hide in, in your house, there are some actual just built in societal economic factors of why we we feel this way today. Now, did he did you? Did you hesitate to write a book about friendship? I’ve talked with some some friends who’ve written a book on marriage, and everyone wants to read a book on parenting. They’re like, Oh, no, never I’m parenting. But you know, French, I mean, you’re so vulnerable, about your highs and lows, it seems like this is a pretty bold invitation, Jenny, to accountability?

Jennie Allen
Well, I was certainly embarrassed to release this book. And I knew that this, you know, there, as I tell in the book there, there were several people that would think to themselves, I cannot believe Denise writing a book about this, she’s terrible at this, because I’ve just, I have had to grow in this. But I also think that does, in a way make me an expert that I know what it feels like to have to learn this. I remember my publisher said, Ginny, your online persona and personality feels very extroverted, and like you would have plenty of friends. So you’re really gonna have to convince your reader that this is hard for you. And it really wasn’t hard. Anybody that’s read the book would say, oh, yeah, she’s not good at it. Because I have a lot of stories of not being good at this. And I think it is, it is something that that is, again, back to that myth of we all think each other, it has this figured out, and we have no idea that we’re not alone and feeling alone. And and certainly I have walked through those seasons in my life, I have gotten better at it. And these are the practices that I’ve put in my life, biblically. And even looking at other villages and traveling and seeing the way other people live. I’ve put these practices in my life, and it has changed everything. And my day to day life with friendship is night and day from what it was five years ago. And I’m so proud of the fact that God has given me the this through obeying His word and through obeying the practices that He has commanded us to obey, you know, I think of all the scriptures about about it. And you know, I have, every time I write a book, I begin with scripture, and I just pull every single story and reference in anything that has anything to do with that subject. And this one was so funny, because there wasn’t as much there weren’t as many pages as I thought there would be. And one of the reasons why is because the whole books about it. So when you think about the whole book, it’s all about relationships, it’s about a relationship with God, and then it’s instruction as how to relate to each other. And honestly, a lot of the Old Testament is is how to do that poorly. A lot of the New Testament is instruction of how to do that better because the the small churches that Paul was writing to weren’t doing relationships, well they were hurting each other or not forgiving each other or not walking through conflict well, so the whole book is about it and it You know, I remember from seminary, my professors saying, when you see the Hebrew and the Greek for you, in most cases, it’s you all, it’s the plural form of you. So the book was even written to a people group it was written to, and the Old Testament Israel and the New Testament, local churches largely. And so you see, throughout Scripture, it’s all about this, this is what it’s all about. And so when you read the verses, specifically, that we all think of like, love one another, forgive one another, admonish one another, encourage one another, bear with one another, when you think of all the one another verses that are kind of common to relational conversations in the church, and you really were to parse those out and think about what they mean, they’re really radical, difficult statements, you know, admonish one another. Tell your friend when they’re screwing up, that’s really fun. And then, like, forgive one another, is, is this idea that the very people that hurt you the most, you’re gonna go to them and restore that relationship. And even if you feel misunderstood, and even if they don’t apologize, right, that the reality of those verses lived out is actually incredibly vulnerable and difficult. And we are really good in our culture at boundaries. And and I liked that you mentioned about the home size and how much that has played into it. We, we don’t fight for each other because we can protect ourselves too easily from each other. And when I did the research with village life, most people throughout all of history, all of history until the Industrial Revolution, never moved more than 20 miles from where they were born, they’ve never even traveled further than 20 miles from where they were born. So if that’s true, then what we’ve got is people that were stuck together no matter what. So the Bible was written to people that were stuck together, no matter what doing life together, day in and day out, the church of Corinth, the church of Ephesus, the church of Philippi, all of these local people doing life together for all their lives, all their lives, with their family members, that they don’t like, you know, with, with the people that I mean, you see, and it was it Philemon where the even like slave, a slave in his owner, like you see, throughout the New Testament, this idea of radical relationships that are difficult being worked out and lived out together in community. So I do believe that we we have sanitized relationships, even in church, we leave our church when we get into conflict very quickly. And we find another one. And I think my hope is that this is a call away from this self protective way of living and into a gospel way of living, which is, we get our hands dirty, and we we fight for the relationships that God has given us. And we stay.

Collin Hansen
Do you think, Jenny that this is a lifestyle available in every stage of life? I mean, I got three little kids a full job. I don’t know where I’m supposed to find the time. And I can just see any number of friendships that have stalled, since we’ve had kids. I mean, I love the example that you share from the TV show Friends have, you know, the whole show ends and everybody moves, you know, moves away out to the suburbs exactly at the time when they need each other the most. But how are you supposed to do this?

Jennie Allen
Yeah, the book is only been out a little while. And certainly people have already made decisions to move and are looking for different houses because of just conviction they feel about this, although I don’t think that’s the only way to do this. The hope is that wherever you are, the potential is around you. And certainly people live in, in parts of the country or parts of even our country, where it is difficult to find other believers. And so I understand but but my hope is this becomes the grid in which we live. That is how people have lived throughout history, they move back to their family, they don’t choose a college because it’s the best college or job because it’s the best job or a house because of the big yard they choose to do live near and with their family and their friends. And, and I hope it does change people in a radical way like that. But But I also think wherever you are, you can find it right, the promise of the local church and what God meant the church to be was that a local church could be a family, that even someone that was orphaned, that even someone that that did not have family that the local church could be a family to you. And you know, we’ve abandoned our churches, many people are still watching Church Online, or they’re not even watching it anymore. They just quit. And, and my hope is that this brings a warm sense of I want to be singing next to my friends, again, at church. One of the things practically I just did when we got back to church in person was I picked a part of the sanctuary where we go to a bigger church and I said, this is where we’re going to sit. And I told our closest friends, this is where we’re going to sit. So if ever were in the same service at the same time, we’re all going to be here. And as my kids now one of them’s getting married and they’re living in Dallas, I’m going to tell them this is where we sit, you know, and and just because those little small practices can bring that community into the things you’re already doing, but it takes effort, right? And it takes us noticing the people around us and all also being intentional with the places we are in the places we go. Now, small kids, that is the hardest season, but it also has the most potential. Because if you are, if you if you believe the scriptures and you believe what people have said throughout all time, which is it takes a village to raise kids like it takes community and, and elders and people around your kids to raise them, well, then this should be the time you’re very most committed to it when your kids are young. And I would say for us that has involved firepit and a backyard, that’s fun. And we constantly have people over because it’s not easy to go out to eat. And it’s not easy to to take our kids somewhere. So we just tell people bring food and come over. And in that regard, I think of Jesus like he was so fun, he he would show up in a town and be like, we’re going to your house ekeus like, Hey, guy in the tree, like we’re going over to eat at your house. And that meant they would have to provide the food and and he invited himself over. And some of my favorite moments in friendship have been when a friend shows up at the door with pizza and paper plates. And I didn’t even know she was coming. Right? Like she just ordered pizza and came over, brings her kids and brings the food. And I just think those are the kinds of things we’ve got to do. We’ve got to radically think out of the box of how do we show up for each other? How do we get to know our neighbors, the people that are already near to us? And then how do we just invade people’s lives? That the what has taught me the most about friendship is my very intrusive friend, Lindsey, who just shows up and makes a plan and says, No, we’re doing this Come on, where you need to get out of your house. And I just think and we run errands together and we take walks together. And her kids come and crawl all over me and eat my food. And I love it. And I think those are the kinds of choices we’ve got to start making,

Collin Hansen
you know if you could describe Jesus as the guy who brings the food and brings the kids maybe a fair, fairly decent description of him. Yeah, Gospels there.

Jennie Allen
And he shows up and invites himself over. I just think that’s so cute. Like, we don’t ever think of it that way. But like deck, he’s had to figure out how to feed Jesus and all his people. You know, and I just think that’s, that was how he lived. And we’re so afraid of bothering everyone, right? Like, we’re so afraid of getting messy with people. And oh, I don’t want to bring my kids over because they’ll make a mess of your house. Who cares? Like we have houses to live in. Like we have food to eat. Like everything should be a disposable thing apart from people that should be the thing that’s not disposable.

Collin Hansen
The books been out long enough, Jenny, that you can anticipate some of the criticism. Isn’t this a bit much? I mean, even talking about accountability in finances? I mean, now we’re getting real in finances. How do you respond?

Jennie Allen
Oh, yeah, I was I mean, I know, I knew this was gonna push people’s buttons. I knew it was a whole radical way to do community. I knew people would feel uncomfortable reading it, and they do. And they’re also really grateful because they’ve just never thought about life this way. They’ve never prioritized their family. They’ve never considered, you know, living life day in and day out with their neighbors. They’ve been on their screens while they’re sitting at practices with their kids instead of talking to the people that they’re raising their kids beside. And so I have gotten a ton of gratitude and a chuckle of like, this is really hard. And it’s awkward and embarrassing. And the answer is yes. The answer is is all those things, and it is worth it. And we’re gonna have to fight harder than every other generation did. You know, you go to Uganda and Rwanda, which I’ve done many times, and when I go there, and you go to the small villages, they don’t have doors. They have fires in the middle of their huts. They’re raising their kids together. They are going down every single day together laughing and getting their water for the day. They’re washing their clothes together in the river. They are dependent on each other to live there. They’re, they’re communally farming, they’re educating their kids together. And this is how they live and, and so no, it is not as easy for us that have alarm systems and fences, and that have everything we need from Amazon or in our pantry. But, but we can make choices to each other and emotionally I think the thing I think it has going for it. This idea is crazy, radical idea of living life together. I think the thing that has going for it is we’re all so dadgum lonely. I think people are finally sick of it, and they’re ready for something different. And even though they’re scared to do it, I think you know, I tried so hard in the book to make it so accessible and easy to give step by step even what to say to someone when you’re in a conflict or what to say to someone when you want to pursue a friendship, how to invite them how to be vulnerable I give people Grails for how to do this. So my hope is if if you would be brave enough just to say yes, I think all the handles are there for you to do it. And I hate to say that having friends or making friends right now is like the riskiest thing you can do but it really does feel that way with how disconnected we all are. And and yet it is also The most fun thing you could do.

Collin Hansen
You know, some of us who have had close friends, we think about having that, that tight knit group. One thing you talk about in the book is how you don’t, not everything has to be everybody. Don’t just remember exactly what you say, but something like don’t go out there and just try to befriend everybody. You look for a tight knit group. Now, one of the easiest things to destroy a tight knit group is that one friend who won’t stop complaining and dominates everything. What’s the difference between complaining and vulnerability?

Jennie Allen
Yeah, I think this is such a good question, Colin, because a lot of people listening to your podcasts are probably men. And I do think this is more of a tension for them. I had a conversation with one of my pastors about that. And he said, it just feels like I’m complaining. If I share what’s wrong going wrong in my life, I just feel like I’m complaining. And what’s cool is I actually relate to that even as a female, most of my girlfriends open up easily about what’s going on. And I don’t, it’s one of my struggles and weaknesses and friendship. And the thing in my head that I’m thinking to myself is that I don’t want to suck the oxygen out of the room, that I don’t want to be a burden to people that I don’t know the good and actually talking about it. And it’s one reason I absolutely love research, because what you find out is that the way God built our brain is actually to decompress, and our anxiety goes down, when we are seen soothed and safe. So when I share with someone, an issue that I’m having, and they see me, and they comfort me, soothe me, and I’m safe with them, even if they don’t give me an answer, in fact, especially if they don’t try to fix my problem, when I share that with them, and they empathetically nod and listen, something heals. In me, there’s a neurological shift that happens where I decompress, and my anxiety goes down. Isn’t that amazing? So we are physically actually built to biblically, mourn with those who mourn, not fix those who mourn, mourn with those who mourn. And so there is, there’s something in the supernatural way God built us to be known, and to be understood, that heals our soul in that crazy, he made it where connection with another person would actually heal parts of us now not in place of God, but in reflection of God, right, that we are reflecting the goodness of God as a body, under his headship, needing each other, comforting each other, taking care of each other. And that that would bring healing. Now the problem is we don’t believe that, because we are largely people that that think with our minds, that we can solve a problem. And we are very uncomfortable with suffering and with our own suffering, and with other people suffering. So we quickly try to extinguish it. I do this all the time. I try to solve my kids problem. I barely listen, I’m like, I got it. Let’s do this. I’ll fix it. And and the reality is, most people are not looking for answers. They’re looking for connection. And so when we issue an answer, we are cutting off connection. And so my, my plea with anyone in fact, this is probably the best marriage, simple marriage advice I could ever give your listeners is if if your wife or your husband’s deepest need, which is is just scientifically true that God built us this way, the brain the way it works, we come into the world looking for someone looking for us. That’s what Kurt Thompson says he’s a Christian psychiatrist. We come into the world looking for someone looking for us, because we’re looking to be seen soothed and safe. So if you could just carry that into your relationship with your spouse, and just say, You know what, I’m going to be here, and I’m going to listen. And I’m not saying there’s never a time for advice, but I like for people to ask for it. Like I like for people to say what should I do? Otherwise, I’m gonna nod and I’m gonna listen, and I’m going to empathize with them. I’m not slow, to bring truth if needed. If they’re really wayward, and they need to be corrected. I’ll do that. But most people know the right answer. Most people are looking for a relationship and they’re looking to heal through connection.

Collin Hansen
Well, that’s really helpful. Now, you mentioned the audience in the podcast, a lot of men listening not exclusively, but a lot of men listening. A lot of people in ministry, men and women, different scopes of ministry. How does being in professional ministry complicate things here?

Jennie Allen
Oh, it does. Oh, it does. I would say my friendship life was actually incredibly healthy and fun until ministry. It was when I was a pastor’s wife that I had multiple things that I shared in confidence even so much as I we had reached out to another couple to do some marriage counseling with us in our church. And those things were publicly used against us and for our harm. And though enough situations like that happen, and you throw up guards real fast, and and I would say God bless All pastors right now God bless all people that have persevered and are still doing ministry post COVID is the heart it has to be the hardest season in our lifetime to do ministry on earth, and and it has viewers, if you have survived, and you’re still in ministry well done. And and I’m sorry, that it has been so hard, really, truly. Because, yeah, I look at the people. And I mean, I’m friends with so many leaders, and I don’t know one of them that is not weary, and lonely and exhausted. And so that’s where we are. And, and you’re not alone, if that’s you, and you feel that way. So I would say a couple things, there might be a season to pay someone to be your friend. And what I mean by that is sometimes what counseling can do is help you heal enough to actually be a good friend. Because sometimes there’s people that reach out to me that say, I have tried 27 people, and they’ve all left me hurt me, wounded me run away. And I’m like, Well, I think it might be time to pay someone. Because what what that does is they they stay and they help you see yourself, and why those people are running away. And there might be a reason for that. But for many of you, it’s just that you’re you know, you can’t open up to many people. And that is true. And and I would say that, that you probably have to build right now I’m in something called the confessional community, it’s a zoom call with with six other leaders, we have paid a counselor to be present at some of the meetings, and we are doing the work of being fully known in our struggles in our marriages. And, and specifically in our leadership in our work, because I love my small group, and I write about my small group and, and we do our finances together, but none of them are in vocational ministry like I am and, and so I I choose that Zoom group, and we really do hard work together of just what’s going on in our work, what we feel anxious about and how to, to do that leadership better. So you might need to find that outside of your I would say you likely need to find that outside of your church it is, you know, hopefully, that’s possible for you and I would still try it and and tell people what you need. You know, I think that’s another thing. I just wrote a post today on Instagram about humanizing your leaders because we forget that their feelings get hurt. And so we gossip about them, we forget that they are tired, and they have limits. And so we expect too much of them. And, and so I wrote that post because I’ve been around so many leaders lately that are feeling this way. And I just think humanize yourself to people like tell people, Hey, I’m struggling right now. And and I really need this from you as a friend. Like, could you just go to coffee with me once a week and listen, and keep it confidential? And try it? You know? I mean, could they use it against you? Possibly? Is it worth the risk? I would say it is, I would say even having lived through the hurt of being rejected and publicly embarrassed by things that they used against me. I would still say it’s worth the risk, even though that was that hard.

Collin Hansen
Oh, that’s wise. That’s real. I have one more question here with Ginny on before we get to our final three. Talking about find your people building deep community in a lonely world. I love what you said in the book, Jenny about the mission of God, mission for God, and how that affects our relationships. Talk a little bit about what it means when we’re coming together in these close relationships working together to advance God’s mission.

Jennie Allen
Yeah, it’s actually my favorite part. And probably the reason I wrote the book, even though it’s tucked into, I think chapter seven or eight. I really believe that, that the idea of a shared mission is the gift of the believer, we actually have one, not just a mission, we have the greatest mission of all time that we get to love people to God for eternity. That is, I can’t imagine anything more important on Earth. And so to think we have a shared mission of discipleship with everyone that loves God around us, makes everything fun, right? You, you get to strategically put your kids on teams together and say, Let’s love this, you know, all these parents and invite him to come into our lives and into church. Let’s, let’s do my mom. It’s her bridge club. She and a few of her friends that have been believers a long time they started playing bridge, she became the president she changed the culture of the whole place. They get strategic they break up at the tables and teams and they all have this little mission together to love these people and these women and men to God, I think you can do it anywhere in any way. And and I think when we really seize that and accept that as you know, the God’s call on our lives and start to see that our moments and our places matter, then life just gets so fun, the mundane things become important. And my hope is that, you know, Jesus as he’s about to go to heaven. He looks at his guides, and he’s like, hey, they’re gonna know you by your love for one another. Let me tell you how everybody’s gonna know you love me. They’re gonna know you love me. I’m gonna be gone. By the way you love one another and If that’s the most contagious thing, when so fun, I’ve seen this in my daughter at her school, she has gathered a lot of people that love God and her public school and it keeps growing, their group keeps growing. And one time there were a few kids over that usually were at parties and, and instead they’re hanging out, you know, in our backyard and eating s’mores, you know, and, and all these kids, the somebody overhears these kids, we go outside to take him food and, and my husband overhears these kids talking to each other and going, can you believe we’re at this lame party, and one of them was like, I know, this is so much fun. Like they’re normally drinking, but they’re sitting here by our firepit eating some words and, and there’s something about I think the contagious love that Christians should have for each other that that is our ultimate mission that draws other people in and, and I’ve seen it work, I’ve seen it work in my own life. And I hope and believe that this is possible in this day, and even in the west and in our suburbs. And and I believe God sets us in our time periods, X 17 says in our allotted time periods and draws our boundary lines so that perhaps people may feel their way to God. And and ultimately, I think everything is to that end, and how fun What a fun mission.

Collin Hansen
And a final three now with Ginny Allen, we’ve been talking about find your people building deep community in a lonely world. First in the final three, Jenny, how do you find calm in the storm?

Jennie Allen
I would say I have found calm in the storm. By my friends reminding me what is true of God when I can’t remember for myself. Yeah,

Collin Hansen
that’s good. That’s good. Second, then where do you find good news today?

Jennie Allen
My kids, they’re both in college. One of them is finishing up. And their generation is zealots. And if they’re not all they’re really they’re not lukewarm. They’re either completely running from God or, or don’t know him at all, or they are radically in love with them. And their generation has me so excited about the future of the church. So Gen Z brings me a lot of joy and I believe will cause a lot of good trouble for the Kingdom.

Collin Hansen
Oh, I like that. I like that. Jenny, what’s the last great book you’ve read?

Jennie Allen
I’m reading three right now by my bed, you know, okay, I’ll go with the safe one of those three, read widely. I would say I just keep coming back to treasure I find him to be so relevant, so relevant. I’m reading the knowledge of the holy and I am finding again that it is worth it that God is worth it and that knowing Him is the greatest endeavor and and spending my life on that. It will be worth it one day.

Collin Hansen
I love it. It’s great place to stop, I guess and gospel Ben has been Jenny Allen check out her book. Find your people building deep community in a lonely world best selling title and you’ve heard why. Thanks, Jenny. Thanks, Colin.